Any topic any time. No profanity.

Friday, May 16, 2014

Mercury in the rivers? Help me find it!

OK, maybe I am not reading the information correctly.  It would not be the first time I had a hard time navigating all the mazes created by state departments in California.  I just want someone in the know to direct me to where I can read about the mercury problem the eco's say exists in the Sierra Nevada rivers, lakes and streams.

HERE is the State Fish and Wildlife website.  I wandered around it because I was interested in reading about the fishing seasons and fees (46 bucks now).  While there I thought I would go read about this "mercury" issue that local eco's have turned into a banishment on suction dredging.  I recall they said those evil dredgers would stir up the mercury left over from the gold rush days.  They said the fish were not good to eat and if we did we would become brain dead after a few hundred trout.  Well, I cannot find anything about the "mercury" issue in the website and its sub folders.  If someone can direct me to them I would appreciate it.

If the DFW is the source of everything fish, licenses and even grants for restoration of habitat, then where is this "mercury" advisory?  Why would it not be there in the myriad of sub-articles and jobs they do?  I would think the loss of dredging for the 40,000 aficionados would have extensive coverage and scientific explanations since it was the reason dredging was banned.  But maybe I am just overlooking it?

Like most of the hysteria I have seen perpetrated by the eco nuts in America, they seem to make it up and/or inflate exponentially the danger so people will willingly jump on board the good ship paranoia.  But since I could not find anything on the website I suppose there may not be any science to backup the paranoia?  I know many people over my lifetime who have fished the streams and lakes of the Sierra Nevada and have not experienced brain damage from mercury.  I would like to see the proof that it is a problem, well, even an anecdotal story or two!  But alas I think more people have croaked from eating wild mushrooms than have even had a headache from mercury in the Yuba River.

But grant money seems to be flowing to try and prove something that is unprovable it appears to me.  As long as the "cash strapped" State Departments of California keep dishing out the dinero for studies and fabrications about the environment we will keep seeing this paranoia.  But if you actually want to do something that works, like dredgers collecting mercury and turning it over to the EPA, you will be sadly prosecuted for collecting a toxic heavy metal.  So I was told by some miners that they don't turn it in now because they would be prosecuted!  Stupid eh? 

California and the rest of the nation dole out billions in "grants" every year.  That is "free" taxpayer money to study things and make recommendations that we would laugh at if it came from a five year old.  Bit, since all these billions are not accountable to audit or rational people deciding the disbursement, we will see more and more wasted.  If I cannot find a mention on the DFW website about an issue that destroyed 40,000 miners right to dredge, then I know I am on the right track.

76 comments:

  1. I may have the answer for you Todd. Money, pure and simple. The fishing lobby in California is HUGE. Imagine the financial impact if the government started picking on the fishing industry. Since the evidence is weak at best, it is a no-brainer for the politicians to stay away from it. You can't upset a billion dollar industry and expect a yawn from the industry, and Sacramento knows that.

    On the other hand, liberalism IS a mental disorder, and it just might be caused by eating too much fish!

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    1. You may be right Mike. But then why give out a gazillion bucks of grants to study mercury and then ban dredgers?

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  2. Why aren't those mining companies held responsible for polluting our water sheds with toxins? How about oil/ gas companies for polluting our oceans and rivers? For years I have been a river monitor on the confluence of Humbug Creek/ South Yuba. I used to do the same when I lived on the Pacific in California and Hawaii. I hike in and out every month to the Humbug/ Yuba to get water samples for other things not the remnants of heavy metals used during the mining era. During run off season humbug creek is the color of creamsicle from all the tailings. There is only so much fresh water on the planet and we are polluting it.

    Here is a very basic straight forward link to studies on the Yuba.

    http://ca.water.usgs.gov/mercury/southYuba.html

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    1. Nothing at DFW Ben Emery about this. In fact they have many other areas listed but not many in these mountains. Nothing on the Yuba as far as a BOLO for eating bad fish. Why is that?

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    2. I went to your link Ben Emery and in a sub folder on the South Yuba and Humbug Creek I came away with these experts don't know diddly. Here is the link.

      http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2010/1325A/

      So they use terms like "maybe", "might" "could" to make some analysis. It reminds me of "global warming" terms, So when one reads these experts final solution it is totally bogus. They cannot determine anything. Yet they shut out 40,000 people who dredge. These experts also downplay the millions of tons of scouring water going down the Yuba in the winter. Amazing ridiculous science. Now I see why science is getting pummeled.

      The conclusion I came away with was the USGS and others had a conclusion in search of a reason. They wanted to stop suction dredging for gold so they came up with this bogus set of reports.

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    3. Why aren't those mining companies held responsible for polluting our water sheds with toxins? How about oil/ gas companies for polluting our oceans and rivers? For years I have been a river monitor on the confluence of Humbug Creek/ South Yuba. I used to do the same when I lived on the Pacific in California and Hawaii. I hike in and out every month to the Humbug/ Yuba to get water samples for other things not the remnants of heavy metals used during the mining era. During run off season humbug creek is the color of creamsicle from all the tailings. There is only so much fresh water on the planet and we are polluting it.

      Here is a very basic straight forward link to studies on the Yuba.


      They are held responsible Ben...there is a veritable army of state and federal regulators who very vigorously enforce the Clean Water Act (not to mention all the other multiple overlapping regulatory acts/agencies that require huge staffs and ever increasing budgets). Not those who used to recover gold using amalgamation processes through ....that's been banned for years as I am sure you are well aware. Those responsible for your Creamsicle colored tailing blooms have been scattered to the four winds.

      Let us remember that politicians and bureaucrats never let the protection of the environment get in the way of the the flow of money into campaign coffers and by extension, the budgets of the various regulatory agencies...after all, that's where the lords work is truly done. No point in breaking a BP for shoddy safety practices in the gulf when they can be tapped for years if the fines are kept manageable. Even the near 50 billion dollar payout by BP was moderated by spreading it out over multiple years. Not pleasant for BP to be sure but they were never in any danger of being put out of business. Nope destroying someone for environmental crimes is reserved for those who can't fight back.....a dry cleaner who has an spill, or an auto repair shop who has too many oil stains in the parking lot. Or maybe it's done for political reasons...like forcing a lead smelter to shutdown because they produce raw materials for products a certain political party finds offensive.

      You know....the little people!

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    4. Fish, a lead smelter killed my mother in Murray, Utah. And it wasn't because the smokestack fell on top of her when it was demolished in 1973, if you catch my drift.

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    5. Here Michael...you've earned it!

      http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot

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    6. How does a lead smelter kill?

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    7. Fish,
      I didn't realize mining companies were footing the bill for the mercury clean up the Yuba. Can you give me some examples of the mining companies actually paying for the removal of the toxic waste they are responsible for introducing into the Yuba?

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    8. Fish,
      Overall I agree with your comment. Big business are the ones who get the regulations put in place so smaller businesses cannot compete. The ridiculously small fines aren't enough incentive for the BP's and Exxon's to follow the regulations. What BP did in the gulf of mexico is flat out murder. Just the year before the kill a bunch of workers in Texas. Fines not jail time is a big part of the problem. Large companies need to have their limited liability stripped from them and take responsibility for their subsidiaries actions when under the umbrella of the parent company contracts.

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    9. I didn't realize mining companies were footing the bill for the mercury clean up the Yuba. Can you give me some examples of the mining companies actually paying for the removal of the toxic waste they are responsible for introducing into the Yuba?

      I hike in and out every month to the Humbug/ Yuba to get water samples for other things not the remnants of heavy metals used during the mining era.

      As I mentioned, mercury amalgamation has been banned since....I don't know actually....Google is completely polluted with dental amalgam bans....so I can't find the date. I'd guess the mid 70's early 80's though. If you can find any companies that are responsible for the mercury residuals I agree, they should be sued for cost recovery. I wouldn't hold my breath though I wasn't kidding when I said "scattered to the four winds".

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  3. Todd,
    Science doesn't work in absolutes as you would like. You wanted a report I supplied you with one. It is no surprise a retired general contractor who has opposed river guardians much of his adult life, from what I can tell, knows better than the experts who have taken years of energy and studies to come up with their finding. There is a study from 2013 that addresses fish in the yuba and mercury levels. The reports are public and easy to find but someone who doesn't want to know makes them impossible to find, as the title of your post indicates.

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    1. Your report was BS Ben Emery. How is it that a home care worker supposedly knows more than everyone else about a river just becasue he sat on its shore? Science is absolutely works in absolutes. You show tour ignorance with your statement. My goosness, you think science is a guessing game apparently. That is why the profession is in such disrepute now. Peop, [ le like you have diminished the importance of scientific fact and replaced it with should, could, possibly and maybe.

      I linked to your post and read them and they are not definitive science at all. You need to read them first before you link to them. It shows how inexperienced you are and you look foolish.

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    2. Todd,
      Any scientist worth their salt would confirm my statement that science doesn't work in absolutes. Science works with evidence/ facts as they present themselves. What is definitive is there is mercury throughout the South Yuba Watershed. You are wanting a scientist or report to say yes there is cause and effect towards negative aspects of mercury. The problem with your position is there are so many variables involved the "definitive" or smoking gun you are looking for is almost impossible to find.

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    3. No Ben Emery, you are totally wrong on your view of science. Re-educate on the issue.

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    4. Todd,
      Here is a favorite of yours, cut and paste. It is a piece on science, absolutes, and much more.

      Absolute Truth, Dogmatism Antithetical to Science
      http://tech.mit.edu/V113/N6/king.06o.html

      Excerpt
      " Carlin claims that Absolute Truth "is essential" to science. It is not. In fact, the best science recognizes the basic uncertainty of human knowledge, and by this recognition frees itself from the dogmatic belief that once a problem appears to be solved, it is solved for good.

      The scientific method insists upon questioning not only the objects and events that we find in the world, but also our basic beliefs and assumptions about the way the world is, and the way we come to know things about it. Science works because no fact or belief is ever taken as being final; all knowledge is provisional, and postulates, methods, and conclusions are at all times open to the critical scrutiny not only of the researchers conducting the work, but also of the scientific community at large."

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    5. Proves nothing about science. So yu don't believe there are any absolutes eh? Care to give the readers some mathematical equations? I think you are simply misguided. But, you do know how to cut and paste!

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    6. Todd,
      I am trying to be patient with you. I have never said there are no absolutes, I said science doesn't work in absolutes, which it doesn't.

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    7. Well thanks for being so patient Ben Emery. Apparently you don't read the responses so I now understand why you appear ignorant about science.

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    8. Todd,
      It is you that don't bother trying or unable to comprehend responses.

      you said " Science is absolutely works in absolutes. You show tour ignorance with your statement. My goosness, you think science is a guessing game apparently."

      Have you ever taken a science class above mandatory classes in jr high and high school? Do you know how the scientific method works? A basic outline of the scientific method. Notice not a single step is dealing with an absolute but rather information or data as it presents itself.
      http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml

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    9. So Ben Emery think the speed of light is a variable? You are absurd. Scientists experiment until theuy prove. What is it that you don't get? I too physics in high school and then other related classes in two years of college and I have never run across a more ignorant man then you Ben especially about this stuff. List your science classes for us all please.

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    10. Actually Todd,
      You can learn something about E=mc2 here;
      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/experts.html

      I am one class away from a science degree from Yuba College and transferring to either Chico or UC Davis to complete my education. Unfortunately I had to drop my class this semester for a health issue, I had an A in the class when I had to drop. My last science class in college focused on Natural Disasters and how to mitigate their negative impacts, I was only one of a handful of students who earned an A in the course that semester.

      Again I am trying to be patient with you so I will ignore the insults. Do you know about the scientific method or not?

      Here is science at work challenging E=mc2.
      http://blogs.voanews.com/science-world/2013/03/26/speed-of-light-may-not-be-constant/

      http://phys.org/news/2013-01-einstein-emc2-outer-space.html

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    11. Todd,
      I will give you a pass on your science ignorance since the the last time you opened a science book was like 40 years ago. Science has advanced a great deal since the early late 60's and early 70's.

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    12. Ben Emery, I will not give you a pass on your science ignorance. You do not have a clue. But you are funny,

      Ben Emery, you have not opened a real science book it appears. You are reading some PC brand that has no real world value. What do you know about quantum physics ? I bet nothing. You need to read Greg Goodnight or others that are experts. You are simply a amateur and have been misled over the cliff of Lemmingville.

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    13. Actually I am very familiar with Quantum Physics and if I had unlimited money supply and time I would probably pursue it at a much higher level. But that is not the case and will continue to chip away at a degree one or two classes at a time while working full time, volunteering in our community, being an advocate for the homeless, peace activist, helping our kids get through college, being a husband, and being there for my aging parents who live in Penn Valley.

      So once again a retired general contractor that lives in the same small rural town that he grew up in is saying college science books are not real. Give me a break.

      Here is a quote that fits you perfectly on just about all subjects other than possibly building a house. For the most part I don't sink to your level but you make it hard sometimes because your are so ignorant of so many issues you like to bloviate about. You are one of the dumbest people I have ever encountered in my life not because you lack intelligence but you lack any ability to critically think and to keep your opinions to yourself when you obviously do not know jack about the issue.

      Goodbye

      “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

      ― Mark Twain

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    14. Are you saying you are stupid? I guess you know yourself best.

      By the way, don't you live in the same town you are deriding? Also, aren't you just a caregiver to some old people? I will put my record of accomplishment up against your and you will be no ore than a nano. LOL!

      Finally, adios to a person too self important. But at least the readers get to see what a lib thinks like.

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  4. Interesting. My medical doctor cousin worked with a group of doctors and dentists in Washington DC for many years until she retired. They thought the amalgam used to fill teeth is responsible for the mercury in humans. Thats why many dentists won't fill teeth with it anymore
    When amalgam fillings are placed in or removed from teeth, they can release a small amount of mercury vapor. Amalgam can also release small amounts of mercury vapor during chewing, and people can absorb these vapors by inhaling or ingesting them. High levels of mercury vapor exposure are associated with adverse effects in the brain and the kidneys.

    In 2008, FDA reviewed the best available scientific evidence to determine whether the low levels of mercury vapor associated with dental amalgam fillings are a cause for concern. Based on this evidence, FDA considers dental amalgam fillings safe for adults and children ages six and above. FDA recommends that patients in specific populations who might be more vulnerable to mercury (pregnant women and their fetuses, and children under the age of six, including those who are breastfed), speak with their dentists about any concerns they have about the potential effects of using dental amalgam.

    http://www.mcguiresplace.net/Stories-Water%20is%20Gold

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    1. So what does mercury in the sludge of the Yuba River have to do with teeth fillings? I would think there would be little mercury vapor in the river.

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  5. Mercury is a well known issue in CA and has been for decades. What a dumb post.

    There are a multitude of studies about mercury in CA waters. All one needs is an ability to do an internet search. Here is a tiny sample and starting point for this well studied toxic hazard. Dozens more unless you are lazy.

    http://www.usgs.gov/mercury
    http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/
    http://ca.water.usgs.gov/mercury/

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    1. No one disputes the danger of mercury if ingested. The issue is where is the info on how many people have been affected. None. Sure you have all those studies but since you must not be the brightest star in the heavens regarding analysis othe facts I would suggest you read those studies and get back to us.

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    2. You asked for the studies of mercury in CA waters. The links provided take you to a multitude of studies on this issue. Both US and CA agencies monitor fish in mercury and have a ton of data. The medical study of mercury caused human disease is a totally different issue. Why would anyone expect DFW have this on their site?

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    3. You actually tok the links I have in my article and some other comments I made. You are not understanding me apparently. The outcome of the studies is the use of words like, could, may and possible. Where is you proof anyone has been harmed? There is none. So, if you can supply those conclusions I will happily withdraw my cynicism.

      There is not one study on the DFW site that is definitive. That is my point.

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    4. We know mercury causes cancer and neurological problems in humans exposed to it. Why would DFW have a single link to medical studies on individual humans? Has nothing to do with its mission. Other state and federal agencies show plenty of links between mercury and human disease and pathology. Are you seriously telling us you don't think the massive amount of mercury, well documented in our western Sierra waterways and in its fish, has not had any impact on people? Have you seen the cancer rates in the Bay Area and Central Valley?

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    5. If you read the links (which you apparently did not) you will see they link to USGS studies on the metal. Sounds like you are picking out only the things you think make your point. My point has totally escaped you. We all know the ingestion of mercury is bad, I want you to give the facts on the number of people in the Sierra Nevada's who have died or been damaged by eating the fish. That was the excuse the eco nuts and liberal politcans used to stop suction dredging. If you cannot supply the facts then you have to admit you are wrong.

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    6. Please show everyone where the "number of people who have died or been damaged by eating the fish" was the reason the state used to halt the damage caused by dredging?

      You can't. It wasn't the reason. The reason was the documented disruption and displacement of mercury, long embedded in the streams and rivers. Nothing to do with a particular number of affected humans. That being said, its pretty clear that the massive hotspot of cancers in the valley and Bay Area aren't there by chance.

      Apology accepted in advance. Thank you and have a good day.

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    7. Oh so it wasn't human health you say? Amazing, you obviously don't have a clue. Millions of tons of water travel down those rivers in the winter and dislodge the mercury. Do you deny that? Sorry but you are barking up the wrong tree and hve no idea about the facts or history. Read my post again and get educated.

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    8. Dredging disturbs long resting mercury deposits, deep down inside the streambeds. It dwarfs the effect of winter storms. And yes, I do have a clue- a hell of lot more than you do. I am familiar with the process of those who studied and documented this issue within the State and groups like your local Sierra Fund.

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    9. I don't think so. Having done the dredging myself and with numerous friends who do as well, I would say you have no clue and are just jawing. Sorry, you don't know diddly.

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  6. I got a kick out of old timers talking about how they swallowed mercury as kids because they thought it was funny because it would go straight through their system and eliminated because it was heavy. BMW

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    1. We used to get it a play with it hen I was a little kid. I am OK except for a twitch. LOL!

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  8. Todd,
    It's bad when a song made to be funny is actually more Ka-knowledgeable than your understanding of what science means and how it works.

    So many good one liners in this song.

    Sounds of Science
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CcTVfchNPM

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  9. Todd.
    As I recently wrote on my award winning blog, anyone who questions me, or the science of global warming is a dumb-dumb.
    And before you jump to conclusions, I'm a moderate. If I wasn't a moderate some would question my ability to be "fair and balanced," which an award winning journalist like myself cannot afford. Most of my BF's - like Annie and Stevie and Brucie - are also moderates. That's why we spend our days blogging together. In a way, we are helping to save the planet. Imagine all the hot air if we got together in one room? The last thing a planet that is warming up needs is more hot air. So...dumb-dumb...spare us the globe-is-not-warming rhetoric. You're wrong - again - and I'm right...again.
    The Really Real FUE

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    1. I bow to your superior knowledge RRF. I am an apostate on global climate man made disruption and I need to be pnsihed with harsh rhetoric. So have at, mea culpa! LOL!

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  10. Todd - Google has 1.7 million entries on the subject of mercury contamination. Closer to home, here's the link to a piece on the subject I wrote. -Don Baumgart

    http://yubanet.com/regional/Mercury-Rising.php#.U3zcrnamUoE

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    1. Don thanks for the link. However I do not put much faith in those who are and have been benefitting handsomely from the grants to "study" it. I have yet to find a fact on even one person being negatively affected by the eating of a fish that supposedly contains mercury in its flesh. If you have one or more please give me the links. So I still am waiting for that darn proof. If there is some and it is conclusive I will be happy to shut my mouth.

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    2. How about this?

      For fetuses, infants, and children, the primary health effect of methylmercury is impaired neurological development. Methylmercury exposure in the womb, which can result from a mother's consumption of fish and shellfish that contain methylmercury, can adversely affect a baby's growing brain and nervous system. Impacts on cognitive thinking, memory, attention, language, and fine motor and visual spatial skills have been seen in children exposed to methylmercury in the womb.

      http://www.epa.gov/hg/effects.htm

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    3. Don I know all that. Where are the facts on how many people eating the fish in the Sierra have died or become ill?

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    4. OK, we know cancer can be caused by various environmental exposures and substances. That is certain. But absolute determination of the source that led to the cancer and/or death- very rare stuff. But the public policy goal is to identify the carcinogens and try to eliminate the exposure to such. Same exact thing with mercury exposure. The specific deaths proven to be attributed to mercury are irrelevant pieces of information in this case. The law to ban dredging was not based on any particular identifiable deaths. What is so hard to grasp about that?

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    5. The mercury has been there 160 years for goodness sakes. You are telling me you cannot come p with one fact to prove humans in the Sierra have died or been affected by the mercury? You must see the fallacy of your argument. Same as "global warming". No facts just hysteria. But your lack of facts still shut down 40,000 people from the river dredging. Good job at wrecking the jobs of America.

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    6. I am for smart environmental regulations in CA. Banning dredging is a smart move to protect the health of downstream humans. The few thousand actual dredgers will have to find a less destructive livelihood.

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    7. So the millions of tons of rushing water in the winter doesn't phase you eh? Geeze! Why are people so dense?

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  11. If the Libs would put their dope pipes down long enough the Earth might cool off. That "primo" Purple Haze can't be good for the ozone layer. And...who knows...they might actually feel like getting a job.

    Timothy O'Leary

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    1. Ah, 50 year old stereotypical joke about liberals and hippies! How clever Mr. O'Leary!

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    2. Remind everyone that if it wasn't for the counter-culture revolution of the 60s, there would be no revolution in Silicon Valley, and the world. The Great Society was a big part of the positive change as well in opening up opportunities to people formerly marginalized. All good things.

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    3. Remind everyone that if it wasn't for the counter-culture revolution of the 60s, there would be no revolution in Silicon Valley, and the world. The Great Society was a big part of the positive change as well in opening up opportunities to people formerly marginalized. All good things.

      Yeah man..preach it....check out this picture of the hippies who founded Intel....straight outta Haight-Ashbury dude....bringing love and peace and general grooviness to the people.

      http://tinyurl.com/silicon-valley-hippies

      ....moron.

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    4. Go get 'em, fish. Nothin' worse than dirty stinkin' hippies. Worthless meat blobs. Work camps are too good for 'em.

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    5. Oh, and as always...LOL!

      Now you're getting it.

      Now on to your follow up rant:

      Go get 'em, fish. Nothin' worse than dirty stinkin' hippies. Worthless meat blobs. Work camps are too good for 'em.

      My response is not meant to denigrate hippies Michael...some of my bestest friends are hippies.... so you can just climb down off your "high horse"!

      Jeez...do you need a valium?

      My response was to demonstrate that "hippies" and the hippie movement in a general sense had as much to do with the founding of Silicon Valley as I did in the founding of Feminist Dance Therapy.

      Toodles.

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    6. My "rant" was how I show my love for hippies, fish. Get with the program. "Dirty hippies" is a Burning Man meme.

      This is your Saturday Art Lesson. Enjoy.

      Oh, and what a hoot!

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    7. BTW, I'm writing from Haight and Shrader, lunch at Zona Rosa Burritos. How's that for irony!

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    8. Actually, it was me, the award winning journalist who is responsible for everything that is happening in Silicon Valley. I created all of that so that Al Gore and I could then create the internet, so we could change the way we communicate. Pretty smart huh? Not bad for a political moderate with a BS in Rhetoric from Diablo Valley College. Did I tell you that I used to get coffee for Herb Caen? I really used to be somebody! Now I am just a statistic in the making. Won't be long now! LOL!

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    9. BTW, I'm writing from Haight and Shrader, lunch at Zona Rosa Burritos. How's that for irony!

      Well the least you could do is bring me back some take out....

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    10. Steve Jobs was a hippie. The guys working down in PG. competing with Bill Gates=hippies.
      All the innovation toward the future internet- sharing community= hippie idealists. The connected world would not exist today if not for 60s idealists in the Bay Area. That is a fact.

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    11. Steve Jobs was a hippie. The guys working down in PG. competing with Bill Gates=hippies. All the innovation toward the future internet- sharing community= hippie idealists. The connected world would not exist today if not for 60s idealists in the Bay Area. That is a fact.

      Steve Jobs was as much a hippie as you are a clear thinker. Jobs was a Buddhist.....but that in no way implies that he was a hippie as we understand the term. Ask the 400 million non hippie Buddhists in the world...tell em I sent ya.

      Important tip...simply putting an equal sign between two things doesn't make them equal. It only shows that they are equal...or in this case not equal but equivalent.

      For instance:

      AnonymousMay 24, 2014 at 9:19 PM = moron.

      Is a completely legitimate way to show that you Anonymous May 24, 2014 at 9:19 PM are a moron.

      Writing Stephen Hawking = moron is not legitimate because employing your practice of putting an equal sign between two things doesn't magically cause them to be equivalent.

      True story Bro.

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    12. long, abstract reply to show you don't have a clue about the players involved with DRI down in PG, nor do you have a clue about Jobs formative years. HIPPIES is the correct description. Counter culture, anti-establishment. Major contributions to the digital revolution.

      shellfish

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    14. HIPPIES is the correct description. Counter culture, anti-establishment.

      Oh you mean libertarians....silly you! I have nothing against hippies but what was going on in Silicon Valley wasn't the same as what was going on in the Fillmore.

      Try again.

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    15. My own experience with these hippies was a bit different as well. The first one I ever saw was a fella living in a cave towards NSJ and he had two or three baes with him. We 1968 classmates who traveled to see him interviewed by all the TV stations were amazed he had those women! We didn't even have one date! We were jealous! LOL!

      The fella in the cave did n ot even have a radio!

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    16. being very familiar with one of Gary Kildall's band of merrymen, I can attest that the guy I know and most of their gang was a genuine hippie that you imagine. Acid was certainly part of the program. None of those guys resembled libertarians as you define it today. Not close.

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    17. Whatevs dude....if you need this, okay they were hippies.

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    18. point all along was that counterculture creative types of the 60s and 70s created the conditions, the ideas and the worldly thinking to allow today's world to exist. Without the Timothy Leary types to guide the acid trips and inspirations, some of this stuff might have taken decades more to come to fruition. IBM suits and Ward Cleaver values didn't build our world today.
      shellfish

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    1. That is why I leave your comments MichaelA. I want the aliens to see what a putz you are and how lame your comments are. Too funny!

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    2. Todd, you be nice to Michael, he likes me. He and Frisch are my only friends. Well, I'm not that sure about Michael, but I know that Steve will always be there to defend me, no matter what I do or say. I'm pretty sure about that. I think. Steve, call me, I'm feeling lonely. Bruiser wouldn't let me dress up today. I really need some time in front of the mirror to help get my self esteem back! LOL!

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  13. Yeah! I needed that! Couple of vodka and Red Bulls, and I am ready! Looking in the mirror I now see the awesome award winning journalist I used to be. Does this outfit make my butt look big? I love how my mumu hugs my figure as I glide out to my tiki bar for another shot. Did I show you a picture of my tiki bar? I got it last year on sale at B&C. Those good old boys don't have anything like this! I am really something! LOL!

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Real name thank you.